Special Guest: Hannah Taylor

Lilli: Alright, welcome Hannah to the podcast. I am gonna start with a standard question that we ask, here, which is, "What do you know about codependency and/or how has it touched your life?”

Hannah: Hello, happy to be here. So, my working definition of codependency is when I need you to need me.

And so, a codependent relationship is really based on the idea that... Or the internal belief that… unless someone needs us, we're not really worthy. That our worth depends on how much we have to offer other people, and how much other people need us.

And this is has touched me personally and professionally.

I worked in juvenile corrections for three years and I saw codependency at the root of a lot of the kids suffering and a lot at the root of the addiction cycles that a lot of the kids were in. It was a great way for them to get love. 

For me, myself, my mother had very much a codependent relationship with my step-father, I was young when my father passed away, so maybe her codependent relationship was with my dad too.

But it's really, honestly I think that's in all of us. I don't think that we can really escape it. Those tendencies are just there and they are echoed through all of pop culture. You can see, co-dependency in especially country music. I don't know if anyone is into country music but you can hear it there.

I like to also call it toxic monogamy. So I didn't have you… You are my one and only forever and ever….

That’s how I think about codependency. It's really based around being in need and using your need to, or the other person's need, to validate your worth or to get attention, or get your need for love. 

Lilli: Yeah, I think so too. The definition that I've come up with…so I talk about and geek out about codependency. In fact, somebody asked me what I do. I do a lot of things, but I host a podcast about codependency. And so that kind of is a conversation starter about, well, What is codependency? And then it goes into a lot of times it goes into either... Well, isn't that good, is it codependency a good thing in a relationship?

And then it also goes into how codependency works in addiction dynamics.

So there's a whole bunch of things that we could talk about with that, but what I found with my study, is my definition, and I've talked about this too, is: “a complete break from oneself.”

So, at the root of my shame, and my fear, I completely lost myself. And whether that be at different times. It was a person for sure, but then at other times it was food or at other times it was…whatever the bandaid was at the time. 

I don't know, I think it's interesting to think about defining and you know what's interesting, too, is my most listened to podcast is the very first one which is: what is codependency and I feel like it's interesting to talk about the definition and maybe the misconceptions about it, as well. I think it helps people.

Hannah: Yeah, the codependency being a good thing, is it absolutely true as long as both partners are perfectly equally codependent which is really hard, that's a tough one to achieve.

Yeah, and actually, I don't know if you've heard anything about ask culture and I guess culture. There's been a meme circulating, that really describes this. Actually, three different people send it me, and they were like, you'd like this and I'm like... Yes, so I'm very familiar with it but I myself practice, a lot of alternative relationship practices are polyamorous and I consider myself more of a relationship anarchist, than anything else. 

And so, for me, a relationship doesn't look like any one thing.

And so when people are like, "Oh this is good or bad, or whatever,” I'm just like... No, it could be. It could work for any number of people or really I believe that we're only in relationships that serve us. And so it might be serving a belief that is defunct, it might be serving in a really inefficient way it might be serving a core belief that really underlies everything despite the attempts that you're making to create something else on top of that.

But more than anything, what I see, is this type of painful relationship really serves to highlight that underneath, that core belief, that's really kind of like the rocky foundation that you're building on. 

And so when you're in enough pain in a relationship, you're like... “Oh wait, I have to figure something else out..”

Lilli: Yeah, for sure... For sure. I talk about that too. I think about that a lot. You said a couple seconds ago was, you said you started off by saying codependent, is good if it's equal on both sides. But what I found is my relationships and the relationships that I've modeled, let’s be honest here, is the “excessive-ness" on either side, it's like it's not balanced. 

It’s either this person is really needy or very time-consuming. It sounds like it's simple, but it's not because those types of behaviors and the search for love like you just said, it kind of combines in this line.

So I talk about extremes, for me, I'm on the extreme submissive side of things, which is, I will do anything or I would have at one point, do anything for anyone and not think about what the consequences would be for me.

So, I think that's, that's a good point, to point out.

Hannah: Yeah, and I love to rest in the paradox myself. So, resting in the kind of paradox where what you're talking about is to definitely out of balance, right?

Yeah, at the same time, it's perfectly balanced. The fact that you're gonna give, give, given, give means that you are perfectly balanced by someone who is willing to take. Because people who are honestly like whether you're the giver or the taker this is a conversation that really rests on boundaries. Once you have boundaries, you can't relate to people who don't have them, even if they're the givers even if they're overflowing with love. And this is the thing that I would love for givers to really understand.

The thing that I would love for people who are givers to understand is that people who have solid boundaries and would not cross your boundaries won't relate to you, because they don't want you to be sacrificing yourself and they can't trust you, to not sacrifice yourself.

It's actually one of the first things that I say to my partners is "I only want you to do what you want to do,” “I want you to say no to me if you don't wanna do it,” and “I want you to get comfortable with the idea that you're going to hurt me,” and I want you to be willing to hurt me for the sake of your truth.

I think there's so much going around that it’s the worst thing ever to hurt your partner. That's especially from then all men, I love men, so much and they're so afraid of hurting their female partner because then they're the monster unredeemable.

And yet, if you can't actually be honest in a relationship if you're not willing to hurt your partner, and if you're not willing to trust that your partner can recover from those minor points that are really based around your partner's truth.

Lilli: So how did you get to where you were in your mindset if you saw some co-dependency pattern?

A lot of people I know listening out there, based off of what people are telling me is the why and the how. Why am I here? How did I get here? How do I get out?

From personal experience, and I really do think that, boundaries is something that I'm gonna have to cultivate through my whole the rest of my lifetime just because I wasn't practiced in that. And a lot of my close, the people that I'm close to, are not used to a new way of doing things

It’s a new paradigm, in my life, and so that's a challenge. 

And I know, like I said, based off of the feedback that I've been getting on the podcast that that is a question, so can you talk a little bit about that.

Hannah: It’s a lot, I know, right?

The first thing I want to address is: the question of why. One of the very best reframe that I can offer to anybody, who want to change their life, is not why am I doing this. But to change every... Why question into a... What question? So if the question is, why am I still in this, relationship? 

You would change that, because that's kind of accusatory actually. Why questions are... If you eliminate them from your vocabulary, all of your communication will smooth out constantly. It's really insane if you never ask anybody why and you just ask them what or how... That's a huge thing I use. 

Lilli: Awesome, I’m going to try this today.

Hannah: Okay yeah, it's really good. So instead of, "Why are you talking to me like that?” You go to “What's going on with you?”

So, if someone were asking themselves “Why am I in this relationship?”

I would invite them to ask a what question instead, which is... “What makes this the right relationship for me right now?” And it might be just the tiniest, stupidest reason but if you're unwilling to look for the real reason why, what that's keeping you in this relationship if you're unwilling to claim that there is something that's keeping you in the relationship, even if you get out of that relationship, you're gonna create it in the next one.

And you had asked about my personal story. Do you wanna get into that or... 

Lilli: We can go into it. I just know I feel like I know my audience pretty well and I know that, at least for me, and really this is just about telling stories and talking about the things that we've all overcome, but I just know that that's a question. I’ve felt so lost, and it was just too hard to do boundaries. And how do you get to a point where you just say, "I'm done with this, this is it. I'm claiming me now.” 

Hannah: For me, a huge part….It was all humility. I had to recognize that I was creating it and I had to exist a space where there are faults. In order to claim that I was creating it, because if I am in a space where there is blame or fault or punishment, and I recognize myself as the cause. Then, I'm blaming myself and punishing myself and I can't actually create the thing that I really want, which is a life full of joy.

But if I recognize that I am responsible and that everything has been serving me, it's a lot easier to notice where I am in my story. Because the answer is that for me, number one, just so many of my very close family members and a very close friend died. They just died so I had to see how short life was. I dealt with a lot of grief really early on. My father died when I was 23, and my mom died at 49 and died at 33, so I had to see like “Hey, this is how long your life could be.”

"How do you want it to go?”

And then, the other answer is I was in a ton of relationships, so many relationships, and I was forced to face that. This can't be every man, this has to have something to do with me if I'm seeing the same pattern in every relationship that I'm in and I have to see that it's really me that's creating this. 

And so that was part of it, and seeing people in emotionally abusive relationships was part of it. Engaging in emotionally abusive relationships was part of it for me, and I just really see that everything. A lot of people would look at my life and label tragedy and tragedy and I just don't believe in that. I think that there's reality, and reality is correct, and you know it's correct because it's happening. T

This comes from Byron Katie.

I’ve taught cognitive behavioral therapy in juvenile corrections, I led treatment groups on that and cognitive behavioral therapy is really one of the best ways to really create space between the way that I'm thinking the way that I'm feeling and the way that I'm acting because a lot of these things are, mashed together. 

When you say something like, “I feel like you don't care about me,” any time you say “I feel like”  you're actually talking about thought. I think, that you don't care about me, that makes me feel hurt, or sad. And then, I claim that you don't care about me, right?

So that's like the thought, feeling, and action.

The cognitive-behavioral therapy comes in so many varieties these days. Byron Katie's work is pure cognitive behavioral therapy. Non-violent communication, by Marshall Rosenberg, that's cognitive behavioral therapy as well.

Yeah, so if anyone is really struggling with where to begin... Begin to get honest about your emotions, and the thoughts that surround those emotions and actions, that surround those emotions because... And just look at it. You don’t have to change anything. 

And I wanna take the pressure off people to change things because really just looking at it, sometimes will shift itself. Oh that's that thing I do, where I'm trying to earn love, by giving love, and I'm just gonna see that. 

When I see that I'm earning love to get love, I can be like... Is this actually the way to serve what I want? is this actually gonna get me what I want? or is it resting on this belief that's never been about how I get what I want?

And I work with a lot of clients on polarity, as well.

Lilli: Awesome, this is a great transition. I want to talk a little bit more about what you’re doing right now.

How have you transitioned? Give us a little idea as far as... what's happening right now for you?

Hannah: I have a Bachelor's degree in Psychology, and I had always thought that I might get a master's degree in a relationship counselor. I ended up actually being a coach instead. And the way the difference is that I see that a counselor is gonna help you to get back to baseline when you're really, really suffering and a coach is gonna help you to get from your baseline to your excellence.

So I don't really work with people in the throes of abusive relationships, I don't work with people who are... Who are diagnosed. If they're not working with another professional, I'm not the primary professional. A lot of my clients also have psychologists that they work with or psychiatrists that they work with. Which is great because I'm not a mental health practitioner. 

What I'm really concerned with is how to get people to excellence. 

And actually a lot of anxiety, disappears when you start thinking of things and this is way... But yeah, right now, I'm running groups every three weeks. There's gonna be a women's group and a men's group that runs. 

I split based on the genders, because the way that men are raised is really distinct from the way that women are raised in this culture. And if anyone is non-binary, or gender non-conforming, we can chat about it. And I'd love to make my work accessible.

I see that every person has a different energetic configuration, and I see that our culture really sways to preferring the masculine energetic expression. So things like achievement, things like doing productivity, all that is in the masculine energetic. It’s like go, go, go, and hustle that's a masculine energy.

And then the feminine energetic is one on of chaos and creation. It's non-linear. It's very much about receiving and not really about doing, it's about being.. 

There's no right energetic balance, every person has their unique energetic balance, but I see a lot of women suffering because they want the masculine energy from men, they want a provider, they want a protector, and yet they can't actually relinquish the provider and the protector, that's engaged within them, and so they can't drop into that feminine surrender where they can allow someone to provide it for them, because they're so used to providing it for themselves.

And it's so scary to think about abandoning and providing all those things for yourself and you've done it your whole life. 

Lilli: So as we're closing up here and I know that a lot of people out there probably want to find out about you. I found you on Instagram. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about what you're doing and follow you?

Hannah: Yeah, my Instagram is a selfish love. And that's all about how you can put yourself first and actually your relationships go a lot better when you're selfish.

And then I'm also on Facebook, I post a lot on Facebook. You can follow me I don't accept friend requests unless they come with the message. So, if you messaged me that you found me on this podcast, I will probably accept your friend request, but if your friend request comes without a message, then I won't be accepting that.

For me it's super cathartic.

Lilli: Well, I so appreciate you coming on the podcast. I know it was great to hear from you and for all those magnificent souls out there. We'll see you next time.