Special Guest: Justin Sunseri

Lilli: Alright. Justin, welcome to the podcast.

Justin: Thank you.

Lilli: My pleasure. Thanks for having... Or thanks for coming on, actually.

Justin: Absolutely.

Lilli: The first question that I always start off with my guests is, what do you know about codependency? 

Justin: So I used to work in a... I had done a lot of substance abuse counseling or therapy, and I did a residential group home for boys in San Francisco. I did outpatients in San Jose, also with teens, and that was boys and girls. And I did a couple other spots also. One of them was a more affluent community in Palo Alto, California, a very, very affluent community, so I've had a lot... Early in my career, I had a lot of substance abuse experience, and codependency was always a pretty big part of that, especially with addicted parents. So my understanding of codependency and whatnot came from there, and then while watching the show Intervention as well. But beyond that, my direct experience was through years and years of working with teens and substance abuse. So my understanding of codependency, the way I've always framed it in my mind is the codependent person is, basically, not well unless... Or they don't feel well or feel good enough, or feel regulated enough, unless the addicted person is a... Had their need satiated or their need fulfilled. Does that make sense? Hopefully that makes sense.

Justin: So that's kind of the way I understand it is, unless you get where you need or want in this moment, then I can't be well. Unless I fulfill that for you, then I can't be well.

Lilli: Yeah. Totally. Listeners, if you don't know about Justin, he has an amazing podcast about the Polyvagal Theory, which I'm just learning about. I think we talked about this before, Justin. I came across it through you and then also through Body Keeps the Score, which is an amazing book, if you haven't read that. But I think we talked about too, when we met each other, is that my definition of codependency is not so much substance abuse related, but I think it does have a lot to do with the way that I expect other things from other people, or other people expect things from me in an unbalanced way, and...

Lilli: My definition of codependency is a complete disconnect from myself. And I think that... I don't know, I'm not an expert on the Polyvagal Theory, but I think that that has a lot to do with...

Justin: It does.

Lilli: One of the elements of it. You mind talking a little bit about that? 

Justin: It does. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad that we're clarifying 'cause the way that you're framing it, it's not something I'm used to, but I could see how those two things can go together. If you are ignoring your... If you're ignoring what you feel is best, or what you deep down know, or you're conflicted with your own values to meet the needs of somebody else, that really is a disconnection from yourself, I think. A big part of that can be a disconnection from self. But the Polyvagal Theory is the science underneath what... The science underneath human connection, but also how we respond to danger. So it's like what pulls us together, but also pushes us apart. And it lays out... There's three distinct neural pathways for how we respond to [03:44] ____ safety, to danger or to life threat. And the first one is called the social engagement system where we can connect with each other. And when that pathway is activated, we're able to make eye contact, we're able to use vocal prosody, which is a fuller range of voice, like when you ask a question. That means you can embellish the end of the sentence to show that you're meaning a question. But you could also drop your voice to sound more scary. Vocal prosody is the ability to use the full range of voice, but you can only do that if you're safe, if you feel connected, or you feel safe in the moment.

Justin: And so, eye contact, vocal prosody, the ability to go hug and be close to each other, to meditate a little bit, to be still, all these things come from our ability... From that pathway being active, that safety pathway. And when we don't have that pathway active, like if there's some sort of danger that we perceive or maybe real danger, then we go into our sympathetic flight-fight system. And the safety system gets cut off. And we drop down into what's called the flight behaviors, so we wanna run away or evade the problem. But then we also, if that doesn't work, then we drop down into our fight behaviors, and that's where we become more aggressive in close proximity and... Or close distance and use force to, basically, get the threat away. And then we go into flight and then we go back in our safety system.

Justin: And if those don't work, if flight doesn't work, if fight doesn't work, then we drop down into our shutdown system. And that is... In the wild, that's basically like a collapse, like death feigning or playing possum where you just go limp. Now, in humans that does happen, but day-to-day it looks more like depression where you just are very cut off. You're very, very cut off from... Not just from others but also from yourself. Very numb, gray, foggy kind of existence. We call it depression, but really it's that shutdown system being more active than the safety system to keep in check. So that's the three states that the Polyvagal Theory lays out based on these different neural pathways or platforms.

Lilli: That's incredible. It's so... I'm at the very beginning of my looking into it, and I know this is your thing and your passion, which is amazing. I understand how... For me, what I've done with myself and connecting the dots and everything is just trying to cerebrally understand why I was certain ways, and I think that my pure definition of codependency fits that shutdown mode. Like you said, depression and suicide, or suicidal thoughts, at least for me, I don't know, self-diagnosis, I know, but..

Justin: Yeah, we do that, right? Yeah. No. I agree... I would totally agree with you that a big, big part of shut down is being disconnected from others and from yourself. And the way that you're conceptualizing codependency, I would think that fits in there pretty nicely in that there might be more of a... More of a shutdown sort of flavor to that individual.

Lilli: It makes so much sense to me, I can't even tell you. I'm probably not expressing my excitement as much as I should be, but it's there, trust me, because that's what I've done. I mean, the connections for me that I can make between my brain and the way that I was acting has just been really helpful for that. And that makes a ton of sense. And what's... Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Justin: I would hope that not just for you, but people listening. And I know for me, when I first heard this stuff, it was so normalizing to know, to hear this refrain, this new context. To me, when you think back on feelings or thoughts or behaviors or choices you've made, then it's like, "Oh okay, so it wasn't just because I'm filled with blank. But it's because I was in way more of a shutdown place and I could not... I realistically could not do whatever it was. Or I was more of a flight or fight place, and my biologies just was not prepared to be safe and be connected with people and make rational choices or put myself first," or whatever it is because it can look so many different ways. But it's a whole new paradigm that I hope normalizes what people have been through and are going through.

Justin: There's no judgement here.

Justin: When you look at things this way, there's no judgement.

Lilli: Right. Which... Yeah, absolutely. So when you help your clients look at it that way, what have you seen? You know, I have a ton of questions and we have just a limited amount of time, but is it a fluid state? Can you move... You know, essentially there's those three ladder rungs, right? And everyone knows about the sympathetic. I think I did even a podcast myself just about just that one element, but it's multidimensional. Is it something that you kind of go through based on your situation? 

Justin: Yeah. Ideally, it's fluid. No one, nobody exists in a 100% safety state, I don't think. But what we want is that the safety state, the social engagement system, we want that to be ideally dominant or ideally strong enough to handle if we... If that flight or fight energy gets kicked on. Ideally, that safety pathway can handle it and kind of keep it in check. Because if it doesn't, then we're running away or we're fighting people. But if we can notice, like, "Oh, something's kicked on." And I feel that sympathetic energy that my heartbeat went up or whatever it is. It feels like anxiety. It feels like anger. If I can feel that and be with it enough and keep my behaviors under control, that means my safety system's there enough. It's not 100%, and that's okay as long as you can keep yourself in check. That's what we want. That's ideally, I think, a really good situation where, like, again no one's at 100% at that safety state. But if we can build the strength of it enough to keep the shutdown stuff, to keep the sympathetic stuff in check, then you're in a pretty good place.

Justin: So if that safety state is strong enough, then it will look more fluid. You'll see someone dip in and out of these other energies or lack of energy. And we all do that throughout the day anyways. Every single one of us can feel these states. If you look back on your day, you'll probably recognize, "I was really way more checked out at this point of the day. And then at this point in the day, I did feel more energy and it was more of like a fight energy. I was really irritated at my boss or my friend or my kids," or whatever it was. But there might have been a point in the day where you were alone or with somebody, and you felt connected, or you felt safe, or you felt like you were actually in the present moment. So yeah, throughout the day, all of these things kick on and off, but ideally we want that safety one to be the strongest to be able to handle everything else.

Lilli: So two kind of last closing things is, how do you help your clients get to a point where they can recognize that stuff? Because I, again, just coming from my experience, like I was so not in that shutdown place forever, but for a while I can say that I was. And a lot of the decisions that I was making, they had nothing to do with me. They had to do with, again, with the codependency, other people or other goals that I was supposed to achieve or whatever it was. So how... I feel like that's such a hard step to make to be that introspective. So that and then also...

Justin: It can be, yeah.

Lilli: The other question is, do you feel it in your body? Like are you supposed to feel? Because it's an actual nerve. These vagals are nerves, right? So those are the last two.

Justin: It's all part of the... Yeah, it's all part of the vagal nerve. And the vagal nerve, it's called the Polyvagal Theory that this one nerve has branches to it that connect really all over the whole body. And so, yeah, if you've ever had a pit in your stomach, or if you're ever around someone who's kind of creepy and you get this feeling in your stomach, that's it. You're feeling it. That's that system coming alive and that's in particular in your belly, that's where the shutdown system lives. And that's that system coming alive saying, "There's a potential that we're going to die around this person." You know what I mean? Like, "This is seriously wrong." Or there's something about this person that just... You get that twist in your belly, or like for me, it feels like acid spikes. So for each of us, it might be a little bit different, but you'll feel something if you're really calm... If you really slow down enough and be curious enough. And that's the biggest piece is, are you curious about it? Then, yeah, you'll see... You'll feel these things.

Justin: And I think anyone can recognize, like when they're angry, their muscles tense up. You're going to feel that, right? When your muscles tense up, you're going to feel that. If your teeth are gritted, you're probably going to feel that. If you... People who are feeling a lot of anxiety, they're feeling the flight energy, it's just kind of gotten out of control. But flight... I'm sorry, the anxiety, you feel it and you feel it in different parts of your body. So yeah, absolutely. You can feel these things, but rather than... And this is what I do with clients. Rather than saying stop or, "I want to get rid of these things," it's about slowing down enough to recognize that, "Okay, these are real. I'm not going to judge it. I'm not going to, like, hate myself or judge myself or shame myself. These are real feelings, probably based on some real stuff." And let's slow down enough to kind of... In therapy we talk about it. But even for someone at home, just hearing that it's normal, that we all of us feel these things. All of us... All these systems kick on and off throughout the day for every single one of us.

Justin: And so, something that might be helpful is to slow down and become more curious. Which is not easy, but that really is the next step, and to realize through the curiosity, and learning how you feel, when you feel, what context you feel certain things in, and coming at it from that kind of curious place, that you could start to befriend your nervous system. Deb Dana calls it befriending, and that's really getting to know yourself. Getting to know your body and what it feels like and... Like I said, what context do these things turn off and on? How do you feel when you're alone in your bedroom, how do you feel when you're at Target and it's crowded? All these different situations, they bring out these different feelings and so be curious about that. What kind of music really brings you to life? What kind of art brings you to life or makes you feel a pull or a push away? So yeah, this can be... It doesn't have to be a scary thing. It can be, I think, a fun process of learning about yourself, about your nervous system.

Lilli: Yeah, I love that. So for all you co-dependencies out there, or co-dependents, it's... The red flag is not just in your mind. Sometimes if you let it, you could listen to it. I guess it could be in your gut too, which... That's a whole another thing that we could talk about, but... Intuition and everything like that. That was very hard for me to do, obviously, which is why I'm here.

Justin: I'm sure, yeah.

Justin: I wanna... Let me add to that if I can, about this. In your head, one of the pieces of the polyvagal theory is that these thoughts in our head don't just exist because they exist. They're there because of the state of our nervous system. So if we're in a flight/fight place, our thoughts are gonna match that. They're gonna become a lot more ruminating, they'll be stuck on something, it's gonna be hard to focus. If you're in more of a shut down place, your thoughts are gonna be a lot more hopeless and disconnected. And if you're in a safety state, you'll feel... Or, sorry, your thoughts will be more hopeful and more empathetic. You'll understand people, where they're coming from. So it's not just these thoughts exist in our head for no reason; it's connected to the biology and they go hand in hand. So if you... Like you just described, yeah, it's not just the thought, and it's so easy to focus on the thought, and it's so easy for us to just stay in our head. But it's not just a thought, it's connected to something that's happening down below, in your gut, maybe in your chest or somewhere, just somewhere in your body.

Lilli: Yeah, we just gotta, like you said, be curious and open yourself up to non-judgemental curiosity, I guess you could say, but yes, awesome! I am so intrigued. Hopefully this is not our last conversation, but I have a lot of work to do as far as my knowledge on polyvagal theory, but I really appreciate you coming on. And I know for the listeners out there, if they're kind of at the same level I am, which I think a lot of them are, it'll help make sense, or at least start them down the road of being curious, so that's good.

Justin: I have a whole podcast dedicated to it.

Lilli: Yes. So there are hours of nerdiness that you can get into. [laughter] So, speaking of the podcast, where can my listeners find you? 

Justin: It's available on all podcasting platforms. I recommend they go to justinlmft.com. In justinlmft.com, I have a podcast tab. That's maybe the easiest. But if you just look up "Polyvagal Podcast" on any platform, you'll find it. Polyvagal Podcast.

Lilli: Thanks for... Yeah, thanks for coming on. Thanks for dorking out with me today.

Justin: No problem.